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Aired October 29, 2003 - 12:00   ET

On Wednesday October 29, 2003, Dr. Louay Safi was interviewed, along with Kenneth Timmerman by Wolf Blitzer of CNN News. Below is the CNN transcript (#102902CN.V95).

[ SECTION: News; International LENGTH: 1806 words HEADLINE: Interview With Kenneth Timmerman, Louay Safi GUESTS: Kenneth Timmerman, Louay Safi BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer HIGHLIGHT: Has America's war against terror turned into a religious war, at least for somE?]

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 WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Has America's war against terror turned into a religious war, at least for some? President Bush tried to dispel any such notion last night, hosting what's called an Iftar dinner, the traditional breaking of the daylong fast during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Among his guests, American Muslim leaders and ambassadors from several Muslim countries here in Washington.

Here with their views to discuss this sensitive subject, the reporter Ken Timmerman. His latest book, "Preachers of Hate: Islam and the War on America." And Dr. Louay Safi. He's director of the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

What is the main thrust of your research, Ken, on this book about Islam and terrorism?

KENNETH TIMMERMAN, "PREACHERS OF HATE": I think there is a war going on, a struggle for the soul of Islam. And you have, on the one hand, the preachers of hate, as I call them, who have been financed by governments in the Middle East. And on the other hand, you have people who would really like to portray Islam as a religion of peace, to return to the traditional vision of Islam and its traditional values.

And I think it is a dire struggle; we are only at the very beginning of it. But the terrorism clearly comes from those who have hijacked the mike in favor of violence and hate.

BLITZER: Is he right on that front? That there's a war for the soul of Islam, Louis, under way right now?

LOUAY SAFI, CENTER FOR STUDY OF ISLAM AND DEMOCRACY: I think there has been a lot of struggle within the Muslim society among different groups for the last century for the soul of Islam, to try to bring Islam into the 20th century and then the 21st century. So there are people who are pushing for reform from within Muslim societies, and there are people who would like to go back to the old ways. So that struggle is there.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a quick caller. Go ahead, caller. We have an opportunity for you to ask your question.

CALLER: Well, may I make a statement please?

BLITZER: If it is brief. Go ahead.

CALLER: All right. In my opinion, the terrorism that took place September 11th, and the reason that the United States is so hated by the Islam and the Arabs countries, is due to the fact that the United States has never appointed an ambassador of peace to produce peace between Israel and Palestinians.

BLITZER: All right. I suspect a lot of people are going to get to that. Ken, why don't you respond? A lot of people are saying that the United States supports Israel, and as a result, it shouldn't be that surprising why Arabs and Muslims hate the United States, or at least some of them.

TIMMERMAN: Well, first of all, this is not about Israel. This is about Judaism and it's about America and it's about the values, actually, that we share. And I talk about that an awful lot in "Preachers of Hate."

If Israel did not exist today, you would still have the rabid anti-Semitism that you see throughout the Middle East. And it's the primary subject of my book. Beyond that, American cannot make peace between two peoples who are not ready for peace. And I warn in this book that we should be careful of a rush to peace.

BLITZER: Osama bin Laden, when he got started in his anti- American efforts, the Palestinian issue was really low on his agenda. There were so many other issues, including the U.S. troop presence in Saudi Arabia, that seemed to be the source of his hatred against the United States to begin with.

SAFI: Well, definitely Osama bin Laden tried to play on the issue of Palestine and Israel.

BLITZER: Only later, though. Only later. Originally, it was the U.S. troop presence in Saudi Arabia.

SAFI: You are right. I mean, his main quarrel was the presence of U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia. But he also reached out to enlist that struggle. But I think it would be wrong to present the issue as Islam is, you know, against the West.

I can tell you, most Muslim and most Arabs have a lot of respect for Americans. The problem is really with U.S. foreign policy and how it is impacting their lives and how they are reacting to it. And those who have expressed open hatred are the fringe of society, and naturally (ph) the core of society.

BLITZER: You want to respond to that, Ken?

TIMMERMAN: Well, I would take issue to that. I wish that that were true. But unfortunately, you have in Saudi Arabia, for instance, the king of Saudi Arabia, who has donated money to Osama bin Laden in the past. The prince...

BLITZER: But that was before 9/11.

TIMMERMAN: That was before 9/11. Since 9/11, you've had the king donating money to the families of so-called Palestinian martyrs, suicide bombers who are killing Jews and killing Americans in the Middle East. Here is what a Saudi government cleric said on national TV in this fundraiser for the king.

He said, "I am again America until this life ends, until the day of judgment. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) don't take the Jews and Christian..."

BLITZER: Is that a fair point, that Muslims in general -- Arabs, in particular -- but Muslims in general see Israel and the United States in the same vein?

SAFI: Probably increasingly more so seeing Israel and the United States as the same thing. And this is the result of the U.S. foreign policy. I think that is where the United States must take a step back and say, well, we have to have our own policy, and we should then be seen as in complete agreement with the Sharon government.

BLITZER: Let's take...

SAFI: But let me, if I can, say...

BLITZER: I want you to hold your thought, because we have to take a quick commercial break. But we're going to continue this conversation, take more of your phone calls, your email for our guests, Kenneth Timmerman, Louay Safi. That's just ahead in a moment.

If you have more questions, comments, call us at the toll free number. You see it on the screen. Or, email me at wolf@cnn.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We are back with our guests, Kenneth Timmerman, Dr. Louay Safi. They're taking your phone calls, your email. Our topic: has the war on terror turned into a religious battle?

Harrison in New York wants to weigh in. Go ahead, Harrison.

CALLER: Hi. Well, I believe that Islam is definitely not to blame for the war. I think that the Koran, the Islam holy book, preaches peace and that a lot of it is anti-American propaganda. People grow up in a lot of these Arab countries, and all they hear is, you know, all this hatred against America. When you grow up hearing that your whole life, that is what you're going to believe.

BLITZER: Let's let Ken weigh in on that -- Ken.

TIMMERMAN: Very good point. And that is why I called my book "Preachers of Hate." You have this coming from the mosques, from Cairo to Riyadh to (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You have it coming from the government newspapers and the government televisions. You have it from the government officials. So I think our listener is right.

BLITZER: Louay, we've got an email from Earl. Let me let you respond to this one.

"Why is that we do not hear the Middle Eastern Islamic religious leaders condemning terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists? If they are not speaking out, why isn't more emphasis placed on this silence?

SAFI: Well, I mean, definitely, there are those who have condemned, whether they're Muslim Americans or clergy within the United States or in the Muslim world. I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is there. But maybe it is not really given enough attention. And definitely, I mean, when we talk about war of religions, it is going to be this way if the extremists on both sides within the West and within the Muslim world will have their own way.

BLITZER: What was your sense of what General Boykin said? He caused a big stir by suggesting that Islam was -- at least those responsible for some of these terrorist attacks -- were like Satan and that this was a war against Satan.

The president distancing himself from it, others distancing himself from his very controversial comments. What's your sense?

TIMMERMAN: Well, I think people need to understand that what General Boykin said is that we are at war. But it is a war that has been declared against America. And who are the ones who are calling it a holy war, a jihad, are the radical Islamists. America does not go to war against countries or against individuals because of their religion. We go to war because people have attacked us.

BLITZER: When the United States has gone to war in recent years, almost every time it's been to help Muslims, whether in Kuwait, a dozen years ago to liberate Kuwait from the Iraqi occupation, later in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in Somalia. Now most recently in Iraq. Why isn't the Muslim world appreciative of what the U.S. military is doing to help Muslims?

SAFI: Because many of them don't see it that way. They see that this is promoting U.S. interests. I mean, the first Gulf War, for example, was seen as an attempt to protect an oil-producing country. And when they see, for example, our government supporting dictatorship and military regimes in the Arab world and the Middle East, then they don't see that -- our preaching for freedom and civil liberties is backed by actions outside where our interests would really converge with those claims.

BLITZER: Let me read another email from British Columbia for you, Ken. This is from a guy named Ken as well.

"It's obvious that the Muslim world is not going to accept a foreign power, namely, the United States, to occupy an Arab country; namely, Iraq. I wonder that the president still insists on saying we are not at war with Islam. They are at war with us. We are going to wake up and call it like it is. Maybe if we declare war on Islam, the moderate Muslims may step in and curb the radicals that are causing all this trouble in the world."

TIMMERMAN: Well, many commentators talk about the need for a reformation inside Islam. I would like to respond to something Mr. Safi said earlier. He said we are being rejected in Iraq, that people are not standing up for human rights.

In fact, the United States is helping to defend human rights in Iraq. We are helping to create one of the first Arab democracies in the Middle East. And I think that is one of the reasons they hate us. They hate our freedom, they hate our values.

BLITZER: All right. Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. I know you want to respond, but we will leave it for the next time. We will have both of you back.

Louay Safi, thanks very much for joining us. Ken Timmerman, the author of a new book, "Preachers of Hate," we will continue to discus and debate this very, very important subject.

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